The disease of MSM (men having sex with men) is unnatural and not good for Indian society.
– Indian Health Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad
Source: Times of India
Listen, Gandu Nabi Azad, what’s your problem, what’s society’s problem with what a man does with another man in private.
Whether two men in the privacy of their homes blow each other or bugger each other, it’s their choice! It’s nobody’s business but theirs.
We just can’t understand these chutiyas interfering in the personal affairs of private citizens.
In any other civilized country but India, such a disgusting comment would have cost the minister Ghulam Nabi Azad his job but in Incredible India it’s business as usual.
Related Stories:
Gay sex is an unnatural disease: Azad
Male with Male Sex is an Unnatural Disease – India’s Idiot Health Minister added by SearchIndia.com on
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In Muslim countries it’s not uncommon to hear of gays being executed or beaten to death.
India is no diff except islam is yet to be named the state religion.I wish my missionary friends would stop bitching that india is a hindu country when it clearly is islamist/maoist/marxist/Leninist/stupidist/racist
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/11/21/iran-two-more-executions-homosexual-conduct
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Thank God, we live in a country that does not execute people on frivolous grounds in retail.
We only kill people wholesale on frivolous grounds (Remember Iraq and the missing WMD?) 😉
Wonder if you guys remember Matthew Shepard’s horrific murder?
You were probably too young then to have read about the incident since it happened 13 years back. The media went berserk over it for weeks.
Besides condoms, the only protection for men to bugger and be buggered is for all nations to enshrine them in the constitution through a Freedom of Sexual Expression amendment.
I do not see anything wrong with the health ministers comment.
While it may be a person’s private life whether he likes a guy or a girl, it is nothing but unnatural.
Among a million species of animals, insects and plants only a handful exhibit homosexuality. It is unnatural because, if homosexuality was so prevalent then evolution would not have happened.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
1. You write: Among a million species of animals, insects and plants only a handful exhibit homosexuality.
By your logic, any behavior becomes unnatural if only a minority support it.
We hope you realize the absurdity of the statement.
2. You write: It is unnatural because, if homosexuality was so prevalent then evolution would not have happened.
If indeed homosexuality was so prevalent then evolution might not have happened. Or, maybe it’d have since you don’t account for the effects of mutations and such.
In any case, what’s evolution got to with the statement of a senior minister declaring it an unnatural disease that came from foreign shores.
The minister Ghulam Nabi Azad makes it seem like homosexuality is evil, which it is not since it’s either a preferred life-style or, perhaps, a genetic predisposition.
3. People are entitled to like or dislike homosexuality and it’s their prerogative.
But when a senior government functionary comes out with such statements, they tend to have an official imprimatur that can have harmful, and occasionally even violent, effects on the few homosexuals.
AIDS is a disease, typhoid is a disease, chickenpox is a disease, syphilis is a disease but Homosexuality is not a disease.
When I wrote “Among a million species of animals, insects and plants only a handful exhibit homosexuality.”. I wanted to highlight that it is such a rare event that it can only be unnatural. When things go against the rule of Nature, it is logical to call them unnatural.
Also, when I meant evolution it includes reproduction too. The homosexuals cannot have a baby the natural way, they have to either adopt a child or go for the medically possible-legally impossible cloning.
A disease is according to the Google dictionary extension I have installed is defined as “A disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, esp. one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury”
So according to your argument if you say it as a genetic predisposition, then it can be classified as a disease of the genes, because something went wrong (disorder of structure of genes) in the wiring of the genes causing their natural affiliation for opposite sex to change.
I am sorry that I did not read the entire link and I commented only based on the title you had in the blog. I do not agree with the minister’s foolish comment that it has come from the foreign shores. Homosexuality and their rights has garnered more attention because of the foreign media and made those people to come out more in the open.
They are too of the human race and are entitled to all the rights.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Unless exceptional circumstances demand it, the state should stay out of people’s personal lives.
Morality is so often in the eyes of the beholder and dictated by the mores of the times we live in that one should be very circumspect in intruding into others’ personal domains just because they’re different from us.
By characterizing homosexuality as unnatural or a disease we tacitly condemn those who practice it.
@dpak.shimpo:
Enna saar? Enna ithi?
“While it may be a person’s private life whether he likes a guy or a girl, it is nothing but unnatural.”
http://tinyurl.com/3bzlsbl
You know what is unnatural? wearing clothes is. Do you see any species wearing clothes? 😉 or using iphones?
Homosexuality is not a disease because Every XX, XY, XXY, XXX has freedom to do whatever they want and which
can be argued as *reasonably* correct according to the created morality of our existence.
@Twig: Shall we classify Homo sapiens Sapiens under animal kingdom? We are wearing clothes not only to protect our modesty, but also to protect ourselves from the elements. If not for them, we will still be living in caves.
May be why you guys are defending is because, your notion of disease means going to hospital, taking medicines etc. Most of the homosexuals exhibit masochism and sadism – which can be classified as mental disease or disorder.
As I said above, I am not against them, nor am I defending the stupid health minister’s comments.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: Most of the homosexuals exhibit masochism and sadism – which can be classified as mental disease or disorder.
What is the source of the above remarkable insight?
Surely, it can’t be from anyone’s personal experience alone because it’s hard for any one individual to interact with a sufficient number of homosexuals to arrive at this generalized conclusion as to the sado-masochistic tendencies of most homosexuals.
So, presumably the source has to be either a reputed study or a wild, reckless charge.
Please elaborate.
I remember reading it in some article online some time back, cannot recollect where.
Definitely not a story I cooked up to support my case.
here is an excerpt from the link given [not sure about how true it is.] below:
“But it should be noted that there is a negative parallel to this – getting sexual pleasure from the pain one’s partner is subjected to. In this case, one is getting pleasure by giving pain. This is called sadism. Being essentially malevolent, it must be considered as a form of hatred; it is biologically abnormal, being motivated by destruction of other human beings. This is true, even in cases where the partner experiencing pain is a willing victim, i.e. in cases of masochism. Here, self-hatred and self-destructiveness are clearly involved – two obviously unhealthy dispositions.”
…..
” ….it should be noted that the sex act most associated with male homosexuality, viz. sodomy, is essentially a sadist act. This is true even in cases where the man being subjected to anal intercourse is a willing partner and considers the act pleasurable (sadomasochism). Why so? Because this act is intrinsically humiliating to a man[1] – i.e. it unavoidably involves the psychological damage and pain of loss of manliness and loss of self-esteem.
A man who wishes to penetrate another man is thus essentially a sadist, and a man who wishes to be penetrated by another is essentially a masochist. The sadism involved is of course most evident in cases of homosexual pedophilia or male adult rape; but it is equally manifest (and so is masochism) in cases of consensual sex between adults. In all cases, such behavior (if voluntary) is psychologically unhealthy.”
From: http://www.thelogician.net/6_reflect/6_Book_6/6f_chapter_12.htm
Another excerpt from Wiki article for BDSM,
“A non-representative survey on the sexual behavior of American students published in 1997 and based on questionnaires had a response rate of about 8–9%. It results showed 15% of openly homosexual males, 21% of openly lesbian and female bisexual students, 11% of heterosexual males and 9% of female heterosexual students committed to BDSM related fantasies.[52] In all groups the level of practical BDSM experiences varied about 6%. Within the group of openly female bisexuals and lesbians the quote was significantly higher, at 21%. Independent of their sexual orientation, about 12% of all questioned students, 16% of the outed female lesbians and bisexuals and 8% of the male heterosexuals articulated an interest in spanking. Experience with this sexual behavior was indicated by 30% of male heterosexuals, 33% of female bisexuals and lesbians, and 24% of the male gay and bisexual men and female heterosexual women.”
SearchIndia.com Responds:
1. Haven’t you guys heard of KY Jelly? Every drug store in the U.S. carries it. 😉
2. The non-representative survey’s stats you cite above do not support dpak.shimpo’ unsupported argument that Most of the homosexuals exhibit masochism and sadism.
3. The tone of the The Logician’s content in your above link is anti-gay and hence lacks credibility. We cite an excerpt below of anti-gay rhetoric from your link below:
WTF is this this nonsense about “homosexuals really want is to smear other people with their impurity” (see second para in above quote). Plain rubbish.
Content from such links like The Logician are not credible and hence useless. It’s like saying Hinduism is bad because the Quran says people not belonging to Islam are infidels. 🙁
An interesting, statistical resource – http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html containing studies for Age at First Intercourse, BDSM, Sexual Orientation, Frequency of Vaginal sex per week, etc
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Thank you.
Surely, it’s a priceless resource. 😉
BTW, Kinsey studies are quite famous here.
i have only known several (well, two) homosexuals in my life:my 8th grade art teacher (lesbian),and some random white kid i used to see at the local Indian hangout,he used (well im sure he still does) put on lady gaga makeup and cover her songs on his youtube channel.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
For some reason, we don’t hear of many gay Indians in the U.S.
Maybe, they’re too scared to come out.
Yes, it does NOT support. I mean the passage I gave are two different views.
The second text explains that almost equal (with negligible differences) percentage of homo/heterosexuals practice BDSM. Not ‘Most’ of Homosexuals.
Oops! I did not notice that bit about theLogician. [As I said, i did not know how true it was.]
SearchIndia.com Responds:
It’s important to everyone (including us) that a mere link does not provide evidence to support an argument if the facts/arguments in the underlying link are distorted/biased.
Studies (particularly in the U.S.) often are biased and give different conclusions depending on whether it’s a Right-oriented organization or Left-oriented group doing the study!
Most U.S. corporations support/fund Right-oriented organizations because they get the studies they want. 🙁
Wow, ‘comment bombarding’ can’t get better!! Am i the only one logged in to SI!!!
SearchIndia.com Responds:
No, there are 14 others currently.
We have a lot of silent lurkers, who for some reason or the other don’t comment.
Suddenly, once in three years or so these ‘zombies’ come to life and drop a comment as if to show that their heart is still beating! 😉
Why to log-in, if not to comment? I mean, for just reading, it does not require to be logged-in right?
And, perhaps, you should consider increasing the count of recent posts / comments. I post a few, and all others’ comments go totally out of the view.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
1. Many don’t even log in.
Maybe, we’ll make logins a must.
2. As for increasing number of Recent Comments, we’ll look into it. There may be a plugin.
i was one of those silent lurkers for a while until i was inspired to join the fight against (or for however you look at it) online stupidity!
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Bravo.
Lurkers of the world, login and comment, you’ve nothing to lose but your
stupiditytimidity.Now that Twig has officially declared that using iPhones is unnatural, I would like to declare that SI is unnatural (using iPhone) and not good for Indian society!
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Twig meant iPhone 3G not iPhone 4. 😉
Also, Twig said nothing about about iPad 2.
BTW, the iPad seems to be catching on with Indians here going by our friends’ purchases.
Have you seen people using iPads in Chennai?
Yes. But very few 🙂
And we get the feel of iPad (and android (honeycomb) tablets ) in office slightly before each version hits the market. That is because, few applications are being developed targeting those platforms.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Do most homes in India (of those who have broadband) have WiFi now?
Here, we suspect most homes with broadband have WiFi.
NICE WELL DONE AZAD! U SPOKE THE TRUTH
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Do you really agree with Ghulam Nabi Azad or is your comment one of those Ponam Pandeyesque desperate utterances to gain some attention?
idhar attention milke kya hone wala hai! hum toh dil se bolta hai
It is official now.. Ghulam Nabi Azad is a c#oot!@.
There is nothing wrong in having personal prejudice or bias or opinions but for a national leader and politician who holds the position of Health Minister to talk utter nonsense is unpardonable. He does not have to like Gay people but calling their sexual orientation a disease is cheap.
Obviously Indians practice very little of “live and let live”.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: It is official now.. Ghulam Nabi Azad is a c#oot!@.
Say that a million times and it still wouldn’t be enough!
@Naveen: “”””””””””Obviously Indians practice very little of “live and let live”””””””””
Do people get high bashing India unnecessarily or what? Azad Nahi Ghulam is a person. India is not a person.
India is a group of 125 crore (sadly, though) people with innumerable languages, uncountable religions, different physical features, infinite cultures.
Out of all the accusations against “India”, the above statement is like saying, “Obviously, Science is Superstitious”.
India is the most complex country you will ever see. It’s a magic that India still exists despite its diversity in every
aspect. Compared to Europe, the history of India is much more peaceful. I don’t know where this quality of remaining
at peace with other people got into Indians. Is it because they really are tolerant or just lazy to confront other people.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Naveen likely has retired for the night. He’s on Chicago time and will probably respond only Wednesday afternoon/evening CST.
@Twig – You are correct. My generalization of India is most likely unfair. It appears that way mainly due to my poor choice of words – “live and let live”. It does not reflect my thoughts accurately or completely.
What I really meant to say is…
In my opinion most Indians tend to be very judgmental and conservative. Most of India’s aam janata is instinctive. Individual’s personal space is often encroached. Individual choice is routinely compromised in favor of traditions and honors. Some elements of individual’s freedom are diluted.
The almost daily news of honor killings, moral police, bullying of various kinds (right to choose your life partner, forced separations as some “important” elders are against it, career choices of students depending on wishes of parents, Women’s rights, Child-labor etc.) are some small examples of not having the adequate freedom to live life on one’s own terms. I am discounting the exceptions. Culture, Poverty and quality of Education are some stand-out reasons that come to mind for these social evils.
So, when a Ghulam Nabi Azad comes out in public and opens his mouth, he exposes his ignorance, prejudice, poor knowledge, insensitivity, ultra-conservative upbringing and disregard for individual choice.
//Do people get high bashing India unnecessarily or what?//
Inspite of the points given above it is fair to say that Indians enjoy superior freedom and quality of life than people in several other countries. It can be argued that being born in India is a boon in comparison to being born in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Middle East, Africa, South America etc.
Now, we have a choice…
1) Should we compare India with the less fortunate countries and bask in the glory of our achievements? OR
2) Should we compare India with the more developed countries and continue to push advancement?
After spending a fairly significant amount of time in the US, I am naturally biased towards the second choice.
I believe most of India bashing is a result of helplessness. You watch your homeland getting repeated raped by your own people and you are unable to do much then you vent out of frustration. We elect leaders so that they can govern the country properly while we do our bit by working hard, keeping peace and paying our taxes.It turns out that most of them are incompetent or corrupt or criminals. They loot our tax money and engage in petty politics.
I am yet to receive the tax refund of INR 35k from the Income Tax department, which I was supposed to get 4 years ago. We have tried everything except paying a bribe. Venting is natural.
//“Obviously, Science is Superstitious”//
I am not sure what you meant by that.
//India is the most complex … just lazy to confront other people.//
Agree with all of that. Historically Indians, predominantly Hinduism has been relatively more tolerant and peaceful than other religions. “Relative” is the key word.
@Naveen: Thanks for the clear response. I knew how an avg indian would feel because I’m one. When I
typed that response to you, I’m aware of all the ‘faults’ in the present indian society. My response was
to be another extreme point of view of India. Why did I do that? Let me explain..
I would never want any body to compare india with less developed countries and feel happy about it.
However, I’m put off by everybody blaming India and generalizing Indians for all the things that happen
here. You blame politicians, you blame police, you blame government officials, you blame cinema people,
you blame doctors, you blame sports persons, you blame teachers, you blame journos and news
channels , you blame students (for not doing research), you blame your neighbour (for throwing garbage
on the road), you blame traffic, you blame IT companies (for not producing ‘products’) ..
It’s all just blame, blame and blame. (‘You’ here is any person).
Unintentionally (Psychologically) we are hurting ourselves thereby decreasing our self esteem.
So, when I saw your response, those things came into my mind and I thought India is as such not
a country to be ashamed off. (Also, take into account 125 crore population. So you will see wierd
problems coming from many distinct indian parts. Clubbing them in one word –Indian>
– would just make it even worse.)
@Naveen:”I believe most of India bashing is a result of helplessness. You watch your homeland getting repeated raped by your own people and you are unable to do much then you vent out of frustration”..
That is a indeed a wrong way of thinking, I think. When you have problems you will solve till you get
a solution, not just vent out frustration. (If venting out frustration solves anything, tell me, I’ll also do the
same). There are exceptional people in India who are doing good. Have you heard of Jayaprakash
Narayan in AP? I couldn’t believe that such a person still exists in Indian political life. If he is so
awesome, why can’t us be?
Instead of just sitting, shouting and making grand statements about India (most of the people do it at
my place, mainly douchebags), I’ve seen people making contributions and started acting to improve
situation. Learnt a lot from them.
//“Obviously, Science is Superstitious”//
you have written that is so obvious, that Indian don’t practice “Live and Let Live”. That is as obvious
as blaming Science as Superstition. India means diversity and it is not in anyway obvious that they
don’t practice “Live and Let Live”.
The other thing I hate about most of higher class (people who are educated and was aware of America
and other countries but no nothing about ground realities in India) indians is they expect a sudden change
in India. For example: The rights of Gays in USA is long long struggle. In India, there was no such
struggle. It has started recently when all the news channels have started covering the protests and stuff
in USA and other Euro countries.(Must have heard of genius called “Alan Turing”). Now this guy would
see it in newschannels and start expecting sudden changes in the laws and attitudes of the people.
That is foolishness. Utter foolish ness.
When Ghulam nabhi Azad said, what he has said, the correct thing is not just bashing him for sometime
and keep quiet. Look at the response he gave next day the newschannels “misinterpreted his
statement”.The realization should dawn upon ourselves that if a health minister uttered those words,
what about of common people? Our mothers? our grand mothers?.
So would you start giving gaalis to your mothers and grand mothers if they respond in the same way?
@Twig – You have chosen to rely on idealism and patriotism in your reply. You have made assumptions and attempted to personalize the case in point. It is hard to be objective with those parameters.
You say “I’m aware of all the ‘faults’…”
Are you putting faults within quotes because you don’t agree with the list of not so great things I have mentioned about India?
You say “You blame politicians, you blame police, … It’s all just blame, blame and blame… decreasing our self esteem … would just make it even worse.)”
1. Instead of criticizing them (Government, related departments and officials) are we supposed to look away when they screw up?? I know we sometimes go overboard with criticism but in most cases the criticism is very well deserved. Appreciation and Criticism should not be held back. It should be delivered in a timely fashion.
2. I am not ashamed of India. I cannot speak for others. (by the way, shame is also relative to who/what you compare with)
3. Covering s#it under carpet does not take the stink away. The first step in finding solutions is acceptance of the problem.
You say “That is a indeed a wrong way of thinking … I’ve seen people making contributions and started acting to improve situation. Learnt a lot from them.”
1. Thanks for the advice. We all know that venting is a reaction and not a solution by itself. We vent when we feel we cannot do anything else.
2. I believe all elected representatives are servants of the public. “Public Servants” is what they are called. They are paid using the tax we pay. We have every right to question, criticize, abuse them when they screw up. Unfortunately the only “power” we have is the vote and that isn’t very effective considering the choice we have. IMO, Revolution is the only solution and it will come.
You say “The other thing I hate about most of higher class … That is foolishness. Utter foolish ness.”
1. I disagree with your assumption that educated / non-resident Indians are unaware of India’s ground realities.
2. I don’t know Alan Turing. Gay rights is not my area of interest and in my opinion it is not a priority issue for India. My comment was about the ignorance and insensitivity of the c#oot!@.
3. I also disagree that change should not be sudden. It is an insult to Indians to think we cannot handle change. India has always embraced /endured rapid change historically. Compare India of 90’s to current and you will know how much it have changed in different ways. Politicians say this to impede progress. I believe in people’s resilience more than the judgment of politicians.
You say “When Ghulam nabhi Azad said … giving gaalis to your mothers and grand mothers…”
Netrikkann tharandhalum kutram kutrame (Mistake is mistake even if it is committed by god). There was no need to personalize this but I’ll let it pass. Obviously, I wouldn’t abuse my mother or grand mother but the message about ignorance, stupidity and insensitivity will not change. That moron is a bloody national leader. What he says is heard by world media. Obviously his stupidity is seen as India’s. So, he deserves all the chappals. His attempt to blame media is pure damage control.
Usage of gaali… why? what is so wrong with that?
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Twig will probably respond tomorrow but as for your point that ‘IMO, Revolution is the only solution and it will come., that is just day-dreaming (the part that it’ll come).
Revolutions, often welcome as they are to correct the serious, glaring imbalances in society, are rare even in the Western world and rarer still in the Third World.
The Indian soil is neither fertile for revolutions nor fecund in revolutionaries.
Some young turks (Shaket in Karnataka, Gunasekaran in Tamil Nadu) and a few score elsewhere toiled for years and ultimately made the final sacrifice, but all in vain.
As long as the Indian middle class is in cahoots with the grossly unjust system, nothing will change in India. Revolution will be a pipe-dream.
Any change will merely be cosmetic, benefiting at most a couple of million people in the the IT, biotech/pharma, BPO, legal and a few other sectors.
India must be one of those rare nations where 64 years after ‘independence’ several hundred million people still live on less than a dollar a day, still shit in the open, still can’t afford a decent education for their kids and occasionally starve to death.
But we have nuclear missiles and we have Google, Sun, MSFT, Oracle, Apple and HP development centers!
The glaring contradiction between progress and poverty is undeniable.
Revolutions – You may be correct. I may not see it in my life time. But, I try to be optimistic.
OT: Have you seen “The mouse that roared” *in Peter Sellers? It is about a fictitious nation’s unique plan to come out of bankruptcy. It is a comedy.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
1. The mouse that Roared? Not yet. It’s in our Netflix queue. Will see soon.
Watching Amelie for the second time. Enjoying it twice as much. If you’re not a Netflix subscriber, your local city/county library should have it.
2. BTW, Murder 2, the movie you referred to as a desi soft porn movie the other day seems to be a lift of the fine Korean movie The Chaser that we reviewed recently.
3. Moved yet? Interested in Venghai tomorrow?
Aiyo! we can’t even be original with a soft porn! 🙁
Was Kamasutra really India’s contribution to literature?
Will Mahabharatha turn out to be an inspiration from an Egyptian play?
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: Was Kamasutra really India’s contribution to literature?
We’ll have to take a long, hard look at the ancient Greek works before we can respond with an affirmative shout! 😉
@Naveen: If Vatsayana was around he would have definitely sued you 😛
Many Indian knowledge riches has been lost because of ignorance or plundered by invading Mughals and Colonial rulers. Did you know that Sushruta wrote “Sushruta Samhita” a book on surgical procedures, including the brain as early as 6th century B.C?
SearchIndia.com Responds:
We bet Sushruta’s “Sushruta Samhita” had no reference at all to family planning operations. 🙁
@SI: You write We bet Sushruta’s “Sushruta Samhita” had no reference at all to family planning operations.
LOL. Good one
SearchIndia.com Responds:
People, people, people everywhere!
Rabbits & mosquitoes are no match for Indians when it comes to breeding.
Large-scale homosexuality might be the panacea for India’s population curse!
Agree 100% with that…most Indians i know have like 20 people living in one house!
I remember this one punditji i used to know, i asked his wife if i could stay the night she said “NO I GOT (she said 5 but counting the other guests who were to arrive it turned out to be live 7-9) 7 PEOPLE LIVING UNDER MY ROOF”!
Moving starts tomorrow through Monday. Packing in progress.
BTW… I bought 2003 Cadillac CTS. Oddly enough it was the only Car in my budget in good shape. Obviously not great on fuel economy but fully loaded, luxurious, powerful and stylish. Cadillac certainly wasn’t in my list of options but it caught my eye and came in the ball park range.
I was told by a few dealers that Honda and Toyota used car prices went up due to the shortage of new cars from Japan (due to the Tsunami). This resulted in price hike of non-Japanese used cars because a lot of people who could not afford the used Toyota or Honda were buying VW, Chevy etc. Finally, only the used luxury cars were affordable. 🙂
I am not sure about the validity of this assertion but it happened that way during my search.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Cadillacs were once the gold-standard of luxury cars in the U.S. but their sheen wore off over the years.
They may have improved now.
You have probably heard it.. PONTIAC – Poor old nigga thinks it’s a Cadillac. But as you said, Cadillac is not a gold-standard anymore.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Yeah, heard that old slur.
Excellent debate! That is what has hooked me onto this site. I can learn a lot – vocabulary, gaali 😉 and gain some good perspective on things.
If you take any issue in India, it will ultimately boil down to the inaction of the middle class. As the dialog in the wonderful movie “A Wednesday” goes – “We are resilient by force not by choice”
The avg middle class is afraid to take on the system because of harassment by Police, Goondas, red tape and the highly inefficient/corrupt judicial system. My father was killed in a road accident in broad daylight, yet nobody came to testify against the MTC bus driver. People do not want go through hardship for someone else, they know that, if they do, they will be forced to run from pillar to post.
But, we have deviated from the main topic.
How much ever we argue that Homosexuals are gaining acceptance in the society. It is easier to say/support cause if it is not involving you. How many of us would be okay to say that my son or daughter is an homosexual in the open?
Do we have it in us to say that my son is a Gay Rights Activist/President of a Gay club in front of your family and friends? If you say yes, you are not being honest with yourself. We will be very proud to say that my son is a painter, photographer, a driver, a singer, an actor, a coolie 😉
Why does this shame factor come into picture if it is our family that is involved? As they say in Tamil – “oorukku dhan ubadhesam”. We do not preach what we practice. We tend to have different ideals for one’s family and the world around us.
In a country, where eunuchs are still struggling for recognition, forget about gay rights!
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: Do we have it in us to say that my son is a Gay Rights Activist/President of a Gay club in front of your family and friends? If you say yes, you are not being honest with yourself.
A purely hypothetical question that serves no purpose because you assume (right in your next sentence) that anyone responding in the affirmative would be lying!
In effect, you’re offering a Hobson’s Choice to all readers – they must respond only with a resounding No.
Okay. I remove “If you say yes, you are not being honest with yourself.” 🙂
Now, what will be juntas reply? I just added the above point, to ask people to be honest with their answers.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
The first step toward eliminating a social evil is to create a consciousness among the people through mass media (newspapers, TV, blogs, speeches) and judicial decisions that the practice is repulsive and inherently unjust.
Then it becomes easier for individuals to do what you say i.e. to accept “that my son is a Gay Rights Activist/President of a Gay club in front of your family and friends.”
India is in the early stages of building that consciousness for gay rights. Occasionally, there are stumbling blocks in that long process like that sick f*ck Ghulam Nabhi Azad.
SI – If I have to pick one thing that I envy about you then it is your excellent vocabulary.
You have a large collection of words to choose from, you describe similar things without sounding too repetitive and you are able to articulate succinctly without compromising content.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Oh, sweetie, we feel so inadequate and sometimes downright suicidal when we pore over the rich prose of Vladimir Nabokov, the trenchant criticism of Thomas Macaulay and the phantasmagorical imagery of Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
But thanks for the compliment.
SI’s excellent vocabulary is one of the things, along with his retorts to comments, which made me a regular reader & occasional commenter in this site. I do read & enjoy the debates of other readers too! Praise be to all! 🙂
Sometimes, you need to open WIKI in the next tab to comprehend what SI says, SI also uses the words, like how IR uses the flute in his songs.
Knowing to play the flute is one thing, but using it in a song at the appropriate places, surely belongs to the realm of our Maestro Ilayaraja alone.
Notice how the flute pieces in the interlude of this super-hit song, adds melody & beauty to the song! ( listen to the flute bits only & don’t drool on the sarilicious Radha – in white sari 🙂 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo63zY4MYpM
Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go & wiki what the heck phantasmagorical means…. 🙂
SearchIndia.com Responds:
1. Nice song.
Really surprised to learn Radha’s co-stars included non-humans too. 😉
2. Wikipedia & Wiktionary are handy bookmarks but there’s no substitute for a good dictionary like Merriam-Webster’s.
We used phantasmagorical in the third sense of the meaning here. Our reference point here is to Marquez’ extraordinary work Love in the Time of Cholera.
If I ask you the way to your house, you are saying North pole is to the North from here.
People includes you and me. When a person with such a progressive outlook as you are, cannot say for sure that you are ready to call your son or daughter a gay/lesbo in front of the society. You are accepting that is not a natural thing.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
As Manmohan Singh said the other day with reference to the plague of corruption, you can’t just wave a magic wand and make it disappear.
Social change comes slowly with public consciousness of an evil spreading (as is happening now with corruption) first and then the desired change.
We don’t have kids but if we did, it wouldn’t disturb us if they turned out to be homosexual or bi-sexual.
Nice to know that you follow what you preach.
Now how many Indian who sided you on this will agree is another story.
You know parenting is a funny thing. The bond you develop with your child is special, it will make you do funny things.
Only time will tell!! 🙂
@dpak.shimpo: In a country, where eunuchs are still struggling for recognition, forget about gay rights!
Wanted to say the same thing, but was not sure if eunuch is the word.
For a revolution to happen, at least a majority need to think of others.
That requires a ‘core’ change. The first thing should be to discard the education system implemented during the raj (learning everything) it was meant for secretaries. I’m not sure if any IAS officer made it to PM or CM, sure they were secretaries, not CEOs.
Anyway there will be a change, a slow improvement if the education system caters to the students strength, than for a quick job placement and 100% passouts.
Once people feel good about themselves, they will think of others, then they may find a cause for revolution.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: Once people feel good about themselves, they will think of others, then they may find a cause for revolution.
Good Lord, what drivel.
When people people feel good about themselves, the last thing they’ll want is a revolution to disturb a status quo that is working to their benefit.
Happy people, satisfied people are never at the vanguard of a revolution. Au contraire, they’re the ones trying to thwart any mass protests.
For Revolution to even be a possibility, a considerable mass of people must be deeply dissatisfied with the status quo and there must be a leader/organization/party that can channel the discontent into a struggle that may ultimately lead to a revolution. It’s also helpful to have a clear enemy to better rally the hoi polloi.
Yep, I agree with SI. There needs to be major discontent, frustration and suppression for a revolution to happen.
When people know no content, they do not recognize discontent as abnormal, When people don’t know the right, they cannot recognize wrong. When they don’t know people following rules anywhere, they are not going to talk about following rules let alone follow it. it becomes the way of life.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: When people know no content, they do not recognize discontent as abnormal,
One of the hallmarks of the age we live in is that symbols of conspicuous consumption are all around and occasionally even upon us (see third para). They cannot be avoided by the poor.
Millions of homeless and pavement dwellers in Mumbai have but to raise their heads and they can see Mukesh Ambani’s $1 billion palace in the sky.
And sometimes these obscene symbols of conspicuous consumption even climb on to the bodies of the ill-fed and poorly-clad homeless, pavement dwellers crushing them to death like the drunk-driving Salman Khan did in his Toyota Land Cruiser SUV.
Under these circumstances, discontent is ever-present for the urban poor but tragically many of them dismiss it fatalistically as their unfortunate lot.
@VJCool – I believe desperation rather than satiation drives revolution. If people get good education and guaranteed job placements then the only thing they will do is count bank balance, make babies, buy that one more house than what they have just as an investment.
The only revolution they will know and care for is of the fan about their head. 😀
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: The only revolution they will know and care for is of the fan about their head.
😉
Fan’s motion would be rotation.. no?
SearchIndia.com Responds:
On p.1068 of the Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (11th Edition), one of the meanings of Revolve is Rotate.
So Naveen is not wrong!
These are techniques Congress uses to divert the attention of people from its incompetence at several issues without even realizing that it further degrades their government.
They tried their best to suppress Anna hazare’s anti corruption crusade by linking him with RSS. They have several issues to divert their battered and bruised image by throwing mud all over towards people like Anna Hazare, Narendra Modi.
Why should Ghulam “Rabies”Azad make such unnecessary and provocative statement? In the aftermath, its a cliched response “My statements have been misinterpreted”.
Dirty tricks department of Congress does it again!!! They’ll never realize these kinds of sleazy politics are gonna do them any favour.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
You write: These are techniques Congress uses to divert the attention of people from its incompetence at several issues without even realizing that it further degrades their government.
Quite possible.
Nothing is below the Congress!
Hi SI,
Just wanted to chip in with my 2 paisa on this issue. You mentioned “mutations” in response to a comment about homosexuality and evolution. I wanted to explore this aspect a little more. At the outset I want to say that homosexuality is most likely (I am being cautious here because although MSM has been observed in some species, homosexuality-exclusive same-sex affinity is still a matter of contention as far as I know) a part of the spectrum of variations in human psyche which includes savants, schizophrenics, ghulam nabi azad etc. So there is nothing unnatural about it.
And governments should stay out of personal lives of people. But issues like gay marriage is what irks me. The question is not whether individuals are allowed the freedom to associate with one another any which way they want, its whether the state should recognize and accord INCENTIVES to such associations. Marriage as an institution has a lot of perks: reduced taxes, pensions etc. but the implicit understanding is that the benefits are primarily as a hedge against the social and financial burden of bearing and raising kids. Now, I am fully aware that I am on thin ice here. Some would say that’s not what marriage is about. Maybe not but I am convinced that that’s what the state-sponsored incentives are about. So childless couples (voluntary or not) shouldn’t get the benefits either unless they adopt and raise children. Fair is fair. Finally, I wanted to point out that even people like John McCain are supportive of civil unions which I believe accords all the benefits but not the name. I am actually in the exact opposite camp, don’t accord the benefits unless they are prepared to take the responsibility of parenthood. Let them call it marriage. So yes, childless couples would be married but they won’t get tax breaks or pensions. And yes, gay people should be able to adopt. But “fusing of two sperms in a nucleus free egg and implanting in surrogate” mode of reproduction is another point of contention.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Hello Sweetie,
You write: I am actually in the exact opposite camp, don’t accord the benefits unless they are prepared to take the responsibility of parenthood.
In a broad conceptual sense, your above point on equal benefits/state incentives only if there are equal responsibilities is a fair one.
But the Indian situation is far too complex because we also concurrently have a population crisis.
So we would rather give extra state benefits/incentives to a childless couple or to a couple that adopts (as you suggest) a child.
Alternatively, the current benefit system favoring married couples (for having and raising children) should be scrapped.
We’re for any curbs on the Indian propensity of reckless breeding.
2. We understand it’s often extremely difficult for gay men to adopt.
So some of them like Israelis Lavi Aron and Omer Shatzky have taken the IVF route. They got the egg from a Caucasian woman living in Mexico and then implanted it in an American surrogate. They’re now the happy parents of twins! Source: Immaculate Conception chapter in Red Market by Scott Carney p.131-133
http://www.welmer.org/2008/07/14/the-chimera-hypothesis-homosexuality-and-plural-pregnancy/
A very interesting hypothesis and as convincing as the others that I have come across.
SearchIndia.com Responds:
Read the piece.
No, we did not have a monozygotic vanished twin. 😉
We do not believe we’ve heard the last word on the triggers for homosexuality.
BTW, the above womb-centric piece only touches peripherally on the cultural context of homosexuality.
Our hypothesis is that some cultures are more receptive to homosexuality like Arabs in early 20th century(??).
Also, is homosexuality more prevalent in the 20th/21st centuries or are we merely seeing greater media attention on the issue?